Tournament Discussion Topic#2

[Rainmaker]

"For a while, till their ACs get to face ACs like OMEGA which is nealy an unstoppable AC.
Why do you think people quit in the first place? because they can bear losing again and again but an AC meant to win only, ok they make counter ACs but they lose money like most architects here but then what? they meet other tough ACs and think of another till they're flat broke." -- Moon Walkers

Moon, the league isn't like the pre-programmed, selfless AIs in the games. This league is suppose to be tough, it's suppose to be frustrating, it's suppose to be challenging. That's what makes it all worthy of getting to the top, worthy of defending your position, worthy of a league, worthy of advertising.

And YES! OMEGA is "nearly an unstoppable AC". AAAHAHAHA. It's tough, it's been beaten, get over it already.

"So what's the solution to this, just control... we need to control what ACs can be built and what can not, when I first joined, I really imagined that one day most of the ACs here will have dual bazookas/ grenade launcher combos/ BP and 81G. believe me, if the current ACs with any of the mentioned combos don't drop out, my expectation will be inevitable."-- Moon Walkers

THIS IS RIDICULOUS -- "we need to control what ACs can be built and what can not" -- (*censored -- sorry, over reacted a bit). (cooling down with powerful radiator, hmmm, is this logical?)

As soon, as we start this "control" on AC builts, what's the point of building? Where is the creativity? What happens to originality? People are FORCE to abandon all that and build more pieces of crap.

Take it a step farther -- what's the point of having a continuing contest such as this league? Why not just abandon the whole ideal and just do touranments with the usual bans/restrictions/etc?

The league is suppose to allow players the freedom to build and showcase their deadliest AC without limitations. It's a representation of the in-game league.

"As for the private hangers, don't you think that that would just worsen the case, I mean anyone could go against a dual BP design without knowing, no?"-- Moon Walkers

We can't stop anyone from building any kind of AC, what we can do however is protect all architects creation in the best way that we can. They spent countless hours on their ACs/AI/tunning, the last thing they want to see is to hand it over on a silver plate for others to exploit, especially their next opponent.

Anyone could be going against any type of AC with any kind of weapon. What if you are dual wielding BP, but your opponent is using BP weapon arms (TAMER-build), WXP missiles, a long range sniper, a full armored tank with LX build? You haven't withness what's like to fight a foe that fires missiles at point-blink. >_< It's this upredictability that makes any contest enjoyable.

[Moon Walker]

So you say it's supposed to be challenging, I agree but not to a level where the only competetive weapons are dual BPs and LX.

I say again, which you prefer, a league where you face clones and counter ACs, where you have to have a similar set-up to be "Competetive/Worthy"? or a league where crap weapon set-ups can actually get you climbing ranks and don't have to stick on a certain tactic to build an AC?

I also say that building dual Bazooka weilders ain't harder to build than ACs like Tailsnake's Fire Fly or Shear's Opression ( maybe Widower but I didn't get the chance to try it. ) or my ACs, a parry/flamethrower tank... Take a look at my personal hanger and see what ACs I planned to use but was too scared to because of certain ACs.

[Rainmaker]

This is ridiculous, we have already have this discussion elsewhere. So, I'll take it as it is.

moonwalker said:

So you say it's supposed to be challenging, I agree but not to a level where the only competetive weapons are dual BPs and LX.

We are in the process of trying to find solutions to it. But banning is never the solution, and you agreed too. So, wtf is the point here?

moonwalker said:

I say again, which you prefer, a league where you face clones and counter ACs, where you have to have a similar set-up to be "Competetive/Worthy"? or a league where crap weapon set-ups can actually get you climbing ranks and don't have to stick on a certain tactic to build an AC?

"a league where crap weapon set-ups can actually get you climbing ranks and don't have to stick on a certain tactic to build an AC?" You mean you want bans. Just spit it out, geez!

Have you been on crack? Have you read any posts by Tailsnake, Jacques, you, me and many others at all? B/c I remember clearly that we already this is discussion -- players will just converge on another design, converge on some other most powerful parts.

moonwalker said:

I also say that building dual Bazooka weilders ain't harder to build than ACs like Tailsnake's Fire Fly or Shear's Opression ( maybe Widower but I didn't get the chance to try it. ) or my ACs, a parry/flamethrower tank... Take a look at my personal hanger and see what ACs I planned to use but was too scared to because of certain ACs.

WTF! Comparing difficulty of each ACs? Are you stupid? Are you going to compare my 10 years old buddy's AC, who have works on it forever and haven't change it -- only to get cream in 16 seconds by another AC that I built in 10 mins? Who the F cares about difficulty, it's a relative matter.

>>>You AC

That's your problem, if it's so scary, bring it to the league. We'll send it back to your hanger in pieces, maybe that's the real scary part.

For once, just stop it with bans. Let's try to find a solution to "architect's privacy", and then we can go at it again.

[Moon Walker]

I guess it doesn't matter how many times I repeat myself... I'll hold my tongue for now till we reach the day when you realize what I said was right and realize it is already too late to fix it.

Edit: Yes I know I said bans isn't a solution, but if that doesn't let anyone be creative and show us new ACs, then what will?

and another thing, you can't say a soldier riding a tank is better than a foot soldier just because the tank has more fire power and kills fast.

Why I compare difficulties of buiding an AC? because most here think if an AC is powerful the creator is skilled, plain and simple. how in the world is that true? you can get any noob playing AC and build the best AC that beat a veteran whose AC is built to stand out and claim that the noob is better.

[Rainmaker]

moonwalker said:

I guess it doesn't matter how many times I repeat myself... I'll hold my tongue for now till we reach the day when you realize what I said was right and realize it is already too late to fix it.

Edit: Yes I know I said bans isn't a solution, but if that doesn't let anyone be creative and show us new ACs, then what will?

Bans should be a LAST RESORT, it's not so simple to just keep imposing it. The "day" that you speak of will come sooner than you think, if we impose bans.

moonwalker said:

and another thing, you can't say a soldier riding a tank is better than a foot soldier just because the tank has more fire power and kills fast.

Why I compare difficulties of buiding an AC? because most here think if an AC is powerful the creator is skilled, plain and simple. how in the world is that true? you can get any noob playing AC and build the best AC that beat a veteran whose AC is built to stand out and claim that the noob is better.

What's the point of building an AC? -- to freaking slaughter you opponents, that's where the "fun" lies! (no fun getting beat, your own words.) Name one contest so far that isn't about beating the hell out of every other opponent? NAME ONE, just freaking ONE! This is the function of this game.

>>> About the difficulty.

Pssss, if someone beats me with a 10 mins build, they certainly are the better AC builder. And I highly doubt "any noob" that you speak of can pull that of against a veteran. Maybe a counter AC, but give me wi-fi, give me a "noob" and I'll slaughter him/her.

[Moon Walker]

Racing is a contest that doesn't involve killing.

and yes I said that there is no fun in getting beat but I specified what kind of beating, getting beaten by the same weapon and tactic over and over again, how do you expect to learn from your mistakes when you fight the SAME AC but in different custom?

It's like going through a maze but rather than turning around at dead ends you go through it, and find another dead end and go through it again.
And if that is still too foggy, then here's another:

-I'm sure at least maybe once, you've played street fighter or king of fighters or tekken, how fun is it when your opponent sticks you to the wall and gives you no chance to fight back?

Edit:
That is much like fight BP design after BP design after BP design, where's the fun, where's the lesson to be learned, where's the "worthy" rival that you want to have as you rise up the ranks?

Nothing, why, you're just seeing mirrors, most ACs are just clones or counter clones, how will you know the owner of such AC when most already look alike? each architect has a style but when they go for the last resort to use counter ACs or clones you can't say this AC belongs to this architect because its style is like this and that, or because the way it fought was like this and that, why? no creativity for an architect to be known for because no one gives him/her a chance to be free.

Yes that is the true freedom, to show the ACs that you can be proud of for its originality not because it dominates the rest.

[Rainmaker]

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ACFF. OH MY GOD! NO WONDER I AM GOING INSANE.

AAAAAHAHAHAHA. Where the heck is SHEAR? I need a logical solution!

AAAAAHAHAHAHA.

((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))

[Moon Walker]

Read my edit post, the insanity ( if that's how you see it ) still goes on.

[Rainmaker]

This is so F-ing ridiculous. You are contradicting yourself in true logical fashion.

true freedom = control

WOW!

[Moon Walker]

No, just people thinking first before acting.

But appearantly that's something we almost never do, right? just "as long as I'm benefitting from it, I do/take it."

[Rainmaker]

"Nothing, why, you're just seeing mirrors, most ACs are just clones or counter clones, how will you know the owner of such AC when most already look alike? each architect has a style but when they go for the last resort to use counter ACs or clones you can't say this AC belongs to this architect because its style is like this and that, or because the way it fought was like this and that, why? no creativity for an architect to be known for because no one gives him/her a chance to be free."

Unlike you, I am real tired of repeating myself, but just so you know, I was beating this same topic in one of my previous post on page 5, I think.

edited: page 4

[Moon Walker]

Believe me Rain Maker, if I was online then I wouldn't leave you till I convince you to see my side.

Weither I was right or wrong, I never let up till I or my rival see the other's side.

[Rainmaker]

moonwalker said:

No, just people thinking first before acting.

But appearantly that's something we almost never do, right? just "as long as I'm benefitting from it, I do/take it."

Now, you are making this matter real personal. that's real logic right there. I'll stop here. As there IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND I NOW.

[Moon Walker]

rainmaker said:

I'll stop here.

I'll agree to that.
You already said what I'm talking about in page 4 but you still don't support the ban or restrictions.... how logical is that? I don't know.

[Rainmaker]

*sight

CLEARLY A BIG DIFFERENCE. What makes you think bans will solve our current situation? What makes you think we will not converge on other parts and ACs?

If you think Bans are the "logical solution" then you are clearly nearsighted. Especially in a league that is suppose to be a continuing event.

[Moon Walker]

because there are about 400+ parts what makes you think that we'll run out of Ideas and creativity?

OK take out the BPs, Grenade launchers, HOHSHI, LX, KRSW and maybe the JIREN, what are we left with? Linears? Snipers? MGs? Rifles? Shotguns? Missiles? we can bring up thousands of designs in, and maybe finally get to see a blader AC in the league.

Edit: Ok, say they find another top set-up, there are still plenty more parts to try, just how many Weapon Armed ACs are there in the league to claim that we'll run out of "Competative" set-ups.

[Rainmaker]

LMAO. CLEARLY NEARSIGHTED.

edited:

Your nearsighted-ness amazes me.

[Moon Walker]

And I supposed you have a far-sighted plan?

Edit:

I don't see you doing anything better.

Edit2:

Well?

[Rainmaker]

hold on man. eating breakfast

[Silence]

Moon walker, quoting yourself in a sig is lame.

And I'm with rainmaker btw. You're nearsighted

[Shark]

Guys... wasn't this supposed to be about an AI tourney *cough*?

...How did it evolve to this...

[Rainmaker]

Yeah, Moon and I, we were bored this morning, no body else was on. So we decided to have a discussion. Sorry.

Let's get back to the AI touranment... we're waiting for Jacques to decide whether or not the AI is worthy of a touranment or do a random AI.

edited:

I was playing MHF all day. It's fun. I just crafted the Bone GS. Still near nude w/o armors though.

[Tailsnake]

Make a serpent fang sword (Bone GS upgrade), it has a lot of power early in the game

[Rainmaker]

Hmmm. I see. I'll get it upgrade.

[Purist]

Testing right now, so I'll just feedback soon.

Alright, I PM-ed rainmaker much earlier in the day some comments about the AI. I'm sure we'll be done with configuring the AI soon.